Can the Power Grid Handle the AI Boom? | Rob Gramlich

Vit Lyoshin (00:00.9)
Welcome Rob, thank you for joining me today.

Rob Gramlich (00:05.07)
Thanks, Vit. Good to be with you.

Vit Lyoshin (00:07.662)
Yeah. So I want to talk to you about AI data centers and electricity demand. we see AI companies spending a lot of money for chips and electricity, I mean on data centers and electricity and things like that. And I think your company did the research and estimated more than 166 gigawatts. We will need more of electricity by 2030. And that's kind of...

a lot. And my first question will be, is electricity becoming like a biggest bottleneck for AI and data centers to grow?

Rob Gramlich (00:51.064)
Sure, I mean yes, I think that is, and I think the technology company executives have said as much that that the shortage of power and grid connections is really holding back their growth. as you said, we forecast around 166 gigawatts. That's a summary of all the utility reports around the country. There are hundreds of electric utilities and they all file reports and we

added it all up so looking five years out, that's that's about five New York City or sorry, fifteen New York cities worth of of power. So you can imagine how much power New York City uses and multiply that by fifteen and you put it all around the the the grid in different states and regions and and that's what it looks like.

Vit Lyoshin (01:30.096)
Wow.

Vit Lyoshin (01:39.536)
And I'm sure people kind of understand what's going on in those data centers, but we've had some data centers for a while. And what does a data center look like and why does it need so much power?

Rob Gramlich (01:53.806)
Sure, I mean a data center is really just a big warehouse with racks and racks of servers. you know, it kind of looks like the old IT room that we we used to have in office buildings, you know, times a million. you know, that that rack of servers is now

you know all consolidated in a big building and you know that is you you're looking at the cloud. Remember we we we moved a lot of you know local hosting of computing capacity away from offices and away from our you know PCs and machines at home and put it on the the cloud. Well the cloud is still a physical thing it's just it's it's a data data center. It's you're concentrating all the computing and the memory and the storage of all our Facebook pictures and movies and streaming

services and all the in our banking services and you know everything we everything we do in modern society is now operating and it's done through the cloud but that means it's really being done through through these data centers. And they yes they use a lot of power. They use it both for the actual computing but also the cooling. It it you know it's an operation that produces a lot of heat. you you might even remember from the old you know IT room at an office building it got hot and you had to have special air conditioning. Well they have

Vit Lyoshin (03:03.054)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (03:11.421)
Special cooling functions, and that uses a lot of power at these data centers.

Vit Lyoshin (03:19.265)
Okay, I see. it just, because the number of them is growing, it puts this demand and pressure on the grid. And when we're talking about this electrical grid, what exactly are we talking about? Is it like, can you explain how the system is set up and working, like how old it is?

Rob Gramlich (03:25.952)
Rob Gramlich (03:39.436)
Sure, and and just to finish the the the last slide, yes, it is growing and it's you know it's growing in part because AI is particularly computationally intensive, right? It's it's learning and and learning and cranking through its algorithms and

Vit Lyoshin (03:51.3)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (03:59.296)
You know, the technology companies are are having to expand their their facilities dramatically from what they had before. Now, you know, AI is getting all the news. There's also a lot of other reasons we're using more electricity. You know, electric vehicles are are steadily expanding, electric space heating is actually quite effective now with new modern heat pumps and and greater manufacturing, which is increasingly powered with electricity. So there's a

lot of reasons we're using more electricity. It's not just data centers. but then yeah, so what does that mean? So that's a lot of demand and you put it on the grid. And what is the grid? So the grid is usually described as three separate

types of facilities. One is the the generation. So think of power plants including wind, solar, natural gas, nuclear, hydro power, geothermal, and some batteries on the bulk power system. So that's that's the generation and then those the power comes out of those power plants and goes up onto the high voltage transmission network. These are like the interstate highways of power, the ones the lines you see out on the highways when you're driving around

very big towers and transmission lines strung between them. and then that system delivers the power to more localized delivery networks, which are called the distribution system. and those are the just the smaller lines and towers that get to homes and and businesses. And so all three stages of that

Vit Lyoshin (05:14.286)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (05:37.183)
do need to expand to meet any kind of power demand. And so that that is happening now where utilities and the various entities involved in electricity infrastructure are are working hard to expand all that capacity.

Vit Lyoshin (05:52.272)
And these highways of electricity, are they kind of evenly spread? Because if some areas produce more power, why can't we just reroute it to those data centers and manufacturing and whatnot?

Rob Gramlich (06:07.819)
Yeah, I mean it it is a an integrated network. the power does flow across very wide

areas most people don't realize that we actually have three separate machines each of the grids in the eastern part of the country the western and then texas has its own separated grid so we really have three grids and if you put power on any of those grids it will flow across really the the entire region so you know 30 or more states in the east are all connected with each other

through that network. And so, I mean, it is possible to kind of have a, you know, an optimal

you know, expanded configuration where you put the data centers in one area wherever it makes sense where you can, you know, where you have access to water and land and other things. and then you put the generation where that makes sense, where you have, you know, a resource portfolio and and different sources of generation. And if you could build enough transmission, you could really optimize that. Transmission ends up you know being pretty hard to build, right? I mean the getting the

new rights of way requires a lot of permits and arguments about who who should pay for it. But you know certainly we could we could the most optimal system would be to build quite a bit of transmission and then you could put the data centers where they make sense and the generation where it makes sense.

Vit Lyoshin (07:26.542)
Mmm.

Vit Lyoshin (07:37.749)
and just to clarify the transmission is that which part of the grid it is.

Rob Gramlich (07:43.019)
Yeah, that's the middle part, the high voltage power lines that you see like on the on the highway. Yeah.

Vit Lyoshin (07:47.338)
the lines. Okay, I see. So for somebody who wants to build a data center today, what they have to go through? Like you mentioned permits, you mentioned costs, and those lines need to be built, plus the building itself. Can you tell us a little bit how does this process work?

Rob Gramlich (08:09.815)
Sure. So the the typically the the data center developer, which I mean it could be a hyperscaler like Amazon, or it could just be some company that wants to build a data center and host Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, Google, et cetera, or you know, just host you know, cloud computing for you know streaming streaming services or whatever. the data center developer, the one that's like build

Vit Lyoshin (08:27.599)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (08:39.959)
the the facility, the warehouse, we'll contact the local utility. So each area has has sort of a service territory for a utility. And so you go to that utility and say, hey, I'd like to connect in you know 2028 or whatever time and the utility will give you up, you know, a cost and a time frame.

f for that. Usually the data center is un unhappy with the response they get because the utility is probably adding two or three years onto what the data center's you know desired timeframe would be. and when they get that kind of response, what they they might do is look at well maybe I can build some of my own generation right here on the site of the data center.

Vit Lyoshin (09:09.551)
you

Rob Gramlich (09:27.623)
And some of them are doing that. I th pretty much all of them ultimately really want to have the the full connection to the grid, you know, all that whole network of transmission lines and the whole bulk power system that's connected with each other. because it's just a lot more reliable and efficient way to operate where you when you're connected to the

the whole system. But you know, in the near term, when all you have is just whatever you can produce on site, some some were doing that, which you know we haven't seen in years, but suddenly just the immense demand for power and the immense speed that the data centers wanted is leading to some creative and and unusual solution so they might be they might be doing that and then there you know the rest of the system sort of

Follow suit. Like there are regional transmission grid planners who, you know, count up all the new demand from all of these requests, and then th they might plan new transmission lines. and the generators, they might be independent power producers, they might just be, you know, private equity backed or, you know, some private.

company based in Houston or Chicago or something who, you know, their expertise is finding places to connect power plants and building them and selling them onto the grid. So that, you know, they're they're seeing the power demand as well and they're responding as well as they can. And then, you know, they turn around and they go to GE and Siemens and other manufacturers of of equipment, like power generation equipment and transformers, breakers, all the electrical equipment that works together.

And you know, they're all buying that equipment. And that's part of a global market. And those things are pretty scarce and expensive right now. So part of the issue right now is you know prices are going up, and it's just hard to get all the equipment, at least you know, on an affordable basis, to to connect all of this new load on the system.

Vit Lyoshin (11:30.925)
Yes, so it sounds like IT businesses are used to their speed and now all these traditional businesses basically cannot keep up because it requires a lot of moving parts.

Rob Gramlich (11:47.232)
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I mean the technology industry is is known for saying things like they move fast and break things, right? Like they are highly innovative, they're willing to try things and you know, let it

Vit Lyoshin (11:54.863)
Right.

Yeah.

Rob Gramlich (11:59.148)
let it fail and then try something new. And the you know, most normal businesses aren't aren't like that. And utilities especially are kind of on the other end of the spectrum. They're super slow and deliberate because they have to be, because if you know, if they connect the wrong thing, to the you know the a a a thousand or more other

Vit Lyoshin (12:14.67)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (12:18.581)
parts that are connected to this multi-state grid, then it can take the whole grid down. I mean it literally can you know cause a cause a blackout if they don't do it right. So they have to study it and they have to do it very slowly and deliberately.

Vit Lyoshin (12:35.169)
Yeah, you mentioned that some data center companies, they're building their own generation on site. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what type of electricity is it mostly solar or some other types?

Rob Gramlich (12:49.505)
So it's actually mostly natural gas, because na if you if you have to have just one source that you you want to operate in as many hours in a year as possible, natural gas is is probably the one.

that can do that. They it's often complemented by solar on site or nearby, and often also complemented by battery storage, very big batteries, same type of technology that's in electric vehicles, but very big central station batteries. you know wind is not usually I don't I'm not aware of much wind on site. It's usually, you know, the the best places for wind are usually far away.

Vit Lyoshin (13:19.075)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (13:32.141)
from power demand and you know nuclear is everybody's dream but it's not gonna be here for many years you know we're we're just not gonna see significant new nuclear power in the next five to seven years and coal nobody's building new new coal plants anymore nobody would take that risk or assume that liability so it's largely gas with a little solar in storage

Vit Lyoshin (13:57.772)
Okay, yeah, was gonna ask about like old ways for producing power like coal. Is it gonna keep like all those coal generation producing factories or whatever for longer or not, or they gonna be gone with newer energy?

Rob Gramlich (14:17.975)
Yeah, th I mean the question is when the old coal plants retire. Many of them are very old, sixty years. They're not very economic and they're not very reliable anymore. but you know, if we have a dire need for power,

Vit Lyoshin (14:29.059)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (14:35.595)
you know, i through twenty twenty-eight, twenty twenty nine and we don't have many other ways to add new gas r and renewables to the system, then the economics turn in favor of keeping those coal plants on a little bit longer than everybody thought of a couple of years ago.

Vit Lyoshin (14:55.085)
Yeah. Are there any like ways or maybe innovations that you know of to kind of cut on usage in other areas to help where demand is going now? Maybe you can mention.

Rob Gramlich (15:07.725)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Well, there are there's a lot of work being done on utilizing our existing network more efficiently. And that can take a number of forms. It could be transmission technologies where you actually squeeze more power out of existing wires through better conductors or technology that redirects power flow or you know increases the capacity at certain times. That's a general category of advanced transmission technologies.

So that's one and then separately from that, looking at end users, like if we all you know used power at different times when the grid is not stressed, like if we instead of charging our car when you you know, if you if you come home at five PM and

charge the car in the summer when the you know air conditioning is cranking then then you're kind of adding stress to the grid. If there are you know if you could instead charge, you know, set your charger to turn on at 2 a.m or something, then you're able to accommodate more of other types of demand onto the system, you know, without straining the grid. And and then, you know, so, you know, finding ways to give people incentives to do that is important.

Vit Lyoshin (16:13.199)
Mm-hmm.

Vit Lyoshin (16:29.057)
Yeah, and I also wanted to ask about the solar panels because I see many people installing them and many states have some sort of like tax break programs or discounts or whatnot. Can the people also like give back? I heard they can give back the energy back to the grid basically.

Rob Gramlich (16:54.603)
Right, yeah. So first of all, solar generally is expanding quite significantly right now. And solar along with batteries really work together. So you have some areas like like even Texas, for example. you know, not a liberal state. They don't have public policies promoting renewables, but solar is going very strong just based on markets there and

Vit Lyoshin (17:00.515)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (17:22.285)
you know meeting like summer afternoon air conditioning load they have a ton of air conditioning needs in Texas right so solar is doing that and then along with batteries when the sun sets at you know in the summer you know 8 9 p.m the batteries kick in they've been the batteries meanwhile have been charging all afternoon and then they start discharging they start sending power back to the grid when the sun goes down so that's really working well california

Vit Lyoshin (17:28.793)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (17:51.922)
also has a lot of that in the the southwest where there's a lot of good solar and a lot of air conditioning need so that that's that's happening and then at the and some of that is at the like the large scale level with these big solar projects and batteries that are on the bulk power grid it's also happening more at the retail level as you were suggesting where just you know I have solar panels on my roof here at my house and I I do get paid

when I'm overproducing, I'm probably overpro producing right now as we speak, and I'm probably getting paid. Now every utility in every state has different rules around that. and you know, we all still need to contribute to the grid. We shouldn't be just, you know, given, you know, you know, free free power or be, you know, paid a huge premium, but we should be paid something, and so the states are usually allowing some type of payment.

Vit Lyoshin (18:42.765)
Yeah.

Vit Lyoshin (18:50.703)
Okay, yeah, that's great. And then going back to manufacturing the data centers and being a huge demand generator. Who should be paying for infrastructure and upgrading the grid? I think this is one of the concerns. What are thoughts on this?

Rob Gramlich (19:12.171)
Yeah, that's right. Well, that's a that is a very hot topic right now, and it's certainly hot topic in a lot of campaigns and elections this fall. there seems to be a a broad policy consensus across Democrats and and Republicans that the the large new loads should really pay their share. They should pay enough so that the existing users, just you know, regular people and citizens

small businesses, et cetera, should should you know be able to maintain the same level of access and and affordability that they had before. So that's a a nice principle. It's a little bit easier said than done. It's actually very complicated in our regulatory world. How do you figure out who consumed how much power and what costs do they cause and how do you assign those costs because it's split between federal jurisdiction and state jurisdiction. And I won't bore you with the details.

something that you know we at Grid Strategies and other you know experts like us try to help figure out and help advise states and utilities on on how to do that.

Vit Lyoshin (20:19.983)
Okay, yeah, and I know there are some other concerns in the communities that they're going to be like, raise the cost of electricity or take the jobs or some other people say no, it's going to create jobs. So what are some of the like controversial things that you hear about around this whole idea of AI data centers?

Rob Gramlich (20:45.943)
Sure. Well it it's interesting. just in the last six months, a a lot of people, I mean tens of millions of people, started hearing that data centers were raising their electricity rates, taking away their their water, and you know, being sort of an eyesore that a you know, I mean if you had a huge warehouse right next to your neighborhood across the street, you know, nobody really wants that.

So the data center proposals got very controversial in a lot of communities and there are data center moratoria and bans in certain communities.

As well as a lot of states and communities are looking at the tax treatment for the data centers. They used to get pretty hefty tax breaks and now, you know, those are those are disappearing or being reduced. So, you know, I mean all those are relevant issues and i I I'm sure that some communities are just gonna say, Look, we don't we don't want you anymore, so stop coming and you know, they'll they probably will it won't

Vit Lyoshin (21:37.647)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (21:51.446)
won't wind up there. I think other communities will look on a little bit more balanced basis. I mean, they they do get a lot of tax revenue from the from the data centers. I know right across the river from where I live in in Maryland is Loudoun County and, you know, they have a huge budget surplus and we have a budget deficit at our county level and we're having trouble

keeping our class sizes small and paying for teachers and they got more money they know what to do with for parks and schools and everything. And so you know, it's it's gonna be something each community community really looks at.

And you know, we have to also recognize that a lot of the anger is really about fear of AI and potential loss of jobs and you know loss of control and you know the scary things that we read about what AI could do if it really kind of you know go goes goes off unchecked in certain areas. And so I think a lot of people are reacting to that as well. So, you know, hopefully there will be some guardrails around use of AI.

Vit Lyoshin (22:39.918)
Mm-hmm.

Vit Lyoshin (22:48.505)
No.

Vit Lyoshin (22:56.783)
So it basically all comes down to what the local authorities will decide whether to allow them to build or not. Just like any other business basically, right? Sometimes people say, you know, there is no way we can approve this and that business in this area. We're not going to do it. Like pig manufacturing, for example. Yeah. So nothing new. Basically, it's a... Yeah.

Rob Gramlich (23:15.585)
That's right. That's right. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's it's very similar and you know the the clear advice to any data center developers is you know, work with your community, show them the benefits, provide benefits.

Vit Lyoshin (23:32.057)
again.

Rob Gramlich (23:32.128)
you know, work with them to make sure they really get something beneficial. There are a lot of jobs, I forgot to mention jobs, but you know, in the construction of the data center, that's a lot of jobs. So you know, that's a that's a factor and every community needs to weigh the, you know, the balancing of all of those factors. And you know, we don't allow

Vit Lyoshin (23:35.598)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (23:55.159)
there's a lot of types of infrastructure we we don't allow, you know, right in certain communities. And a lot of communities just don't have certain types of facilities and that's their prerogative.

Vit Lyoshin (24:07.651)
Yeah. What's your take on those mini data centers? I forgot what the proper name for them, but there are some companies that are building those kind of like a container size that businesses can buy and utilize. Maybe you heard about them. And then also we have, well, I heard about the mini nuclear power plants that can also probably support and help data centers to support their needs.

Do you have any opinion on the OSH? Did you hear anything about that?

Rob Gramlich (24:42.929)
I'm not hearing much about like very small data centers. you know, there are a range of sizes and there will be places where you put something that's you know ten megawatts and places where you put something that's ten times that of a hundred megawatts or even a thousand megawatts or a gigawatt. So we have, you know, a thousandfold you know, range of data centers, and partly that reflects, you know, what a community will accept and what the power grid can.

Vit Lyoshin (25:00.547)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (25:12.853)
accommodate in certain areas. So in that sense they are kind of scalable. You can you know figure the right size for the place that you're developing. and then in power sources the you know the natural gas and the solar and the batteries are pretty scalable so you could do just you know small ones or or bigger or a whole bunch of them all together. nuclear is you know would be

Great, like the small moot modular nuclear reactors, those are being developed, a bunch of companies with some government support and and some other actually some support from the hyperscalers and other investors are are coming along and they're some of the designs are inherently safe and they are power dense, which is really nice. It taught a lot of power right at a very specific location, which is you know makes it easier to to put something right there compared to.

Vit Lyoshin (26:08.665)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (26:11.279)
a you know, a huge wind farm or solar farm.

But the problem is the costs are very high and they they are you know they're not really ready for prime time, so there's a bit of a timing mismatch. The data centers want to get built right now. If they wanted to get built in 2032 or something, we might have a great opportunity, but they all want to get built right now and get power right now. And the nuclear, those small modular nuclear reactors are not ready, and the big ones to build a new one takes 10 years. so we're just gonna we're not gonna see much new nuclear. We're gonna

see a little bit of expansion of existing nuclear plants. And then we've seen some restarting of nuclear plants that had been closed. So we'll get a little bit more nuclear power that way, but not really new plants.

Vit Lyoshin (26:58.767)
Okay, so we talked about a few things like problems and potential solutions. Are there any like more realistic or any of those are some realistic to help us in the next let's say three to five years to supply the demand that is needed today and help somehow you know data centers?

Rob Gramlich (27:22.785)
Yeah, I mean I think the the most realistic is on the bulk power system to really, you know, build out the the distribution, the transmission, and the generation incrementally to accommodate it. And there are charges so the new customers and data centers will will pay kind of into you know some type of fund.

Rob Gramlich (27:53.342)
Sorry, I have a I have a cough. Let me get some water and come back and try to answer that again, okay?

Vit Lyoshin (27:58.81)
Sure, yeah.

Rob Gramlich (29:03.381)
Okay, sorry about that. Can I just start that answer again?

Vit Lyoshin (29:07.213)
Yeah, yeah, go ahead. I'm just gonna trim the video, so

Rob Gramlich (29:11.597)
Great. I I think the most realistic option is to gradually keep building out our generation and our transmission networks to respond to the growing demand.

Wind and solar are pretty quick to add to the system. And battery storage is also very quick. Natural gas plants we are adding as fast as anybody can get the turbines. And then the power transmission is being expanded. So, you know, I think the areas where the data centers want to locate the utilities and the grid system planners got the message and they're trying to build out as fast as they can.

Vit Lyoshin (29:58.008)
Okay, and so can we talk about like government help and maybe policy changes and if federal or state level, if you hear how they help or maybe they will, maybe they will not, any news there?

Rob Gramlich (30:15.543)
Sure. Well there is there's a lot the government can do to help expand our our transmission networks. and actually Congress is considering a significant permitting reform bill this fall. so that's one. And then the the states and the regions can kind of work together to figure out you know who pays how much and and which routes are good for for transmission.

We've been very slow connecting new generation to the system. It's called the interconnection queue problem. There's a kind of a queue, a line of all the generation trying to connect and they

They tend to take five years to get processed and connected, and there are ways to speed that up. And policymakers, like regulators, kind of the Public Utility Commission or the economic regulator at the state level or the federal level are are working on better rules to speed up some of those systems so we can add supply to meet the demand.

Vit Lyoshin (31:18.031)
And then also, are there anything changing in demands for like, you mentioned there's natural gas, I imagine oil, in demands of, or even building batteries and building the solar panels. How quickly that can be provided for the grid?

Rob Gramlich (31:42.444)
Yeah, the manufacturers of generation and grid equipment are expanding capacity as fast as they can. they are really global markets for those facilities and so they're to you know, putting

expanded manufacturing here in the US, but also in other other countries where where they can ship it to here. The US probably has more of this demand growth than most other countries, almost probably any other country. the data centers really like to be here and we're growing power demand in other ways. but other countries also have their needs, and of course Europe.

really doubled down on electrification, using more electricity after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And so they were demanding a lot of this same equipment. So there is a lot of global demand for all the equipment and then the minerals, you know, copper and other metals and minerals that are used and rare earth minerals.

There's a lot of demand for that all over the world. and so there's there's a lot of work being done to expand mining capacity and and expand capacity for those materials.

Vit Lyoshin (32:58.723)
Yeah, I guess the biggest challenge is to quickly dig it out from the ground and build stuff, That's the problem. It's not software. It cannot be produced that quickly, unfortunately.

Rob Gramlich (33:06.903)
Right.

Rob Gramlich (33:14.699)
Yeah, no, that's right. Well, thirty percent of our copper comes from Chile. I was just down in Santiago and you know they would love to be able to expand their capacity because the prices are so high for copper now. but they it just it takes years. It just takes a long time to you know, to expand any mining capacity.

Vit Lyoshin (33:26.051)
Mm-hmm.

Vit Lyoshin (33:34.541)
Yeah, so let me come back to your research and the demand, the new number that you provided. In your opinion, what do we actually need and is it realistic to cover that demand in the next, what is it, four years now that we have left?

Rob Gramlich (33:53.74)
Yeah, it's it's gonna be tough, honestly. you know, it's not it's not clear. I think we do need to figure out some new ways of operating. When we talked about, you know, having our our consumption at our homes and businesses, you know, maybe shift time of day, things like that. But you know, that's something that people have talked about forever, but never really had the

you know, critical need to do that. And I I think we're in a point where you know, this may be the moment where we really have to think creatively. And I I would love to see, you know, regular people get some incentive, you know, like, you know, get get free power in the afternoon when there's plenty of solar power, but but you know be rewarded for using power at the right time of day. More of a positive incentive than a penalty.

Vit Lyoshin (34:47.043)
Yeah, and I think it also like I wasn't aware of some of those things I heard about solar panels. But those times of the day, I heard some states do that I heard Texas actually did something like this. When they had older batteries up to capacity, they were given away for free. And at certain times of the day, but people need to be also educated by someone and told like, hey, you can upgrade your home with

those things, like throw away your old, not throw away, but like replace when you can all your old appliances, for example, or light bulbs, or I like, I'll give you example on my street, for example, where I live, though lights are turned on 24 seven, nobody ever shuts them down. And I know that's a tiny drop in the demand and the needs, but imagine if everywhere there would be

Rob Gramlich (35:34.005)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (35:37.633)
Right.

Vit Lyoshin (35:41.411)
during the day shut off and that would probably save little by little every day by every day and so forth. And I'm just curious if anybody even interested in doing any sort of like public awareness of this thing because people are just arguing and angry at each other.

Rob Gramlich (35:58.508)
Yeah. Yeah, and it's hard. I mean the utilities are the one with the customer relationship. They're sending the bill every week. But you know, I think they could be doing a lot more to educate their customers and providing them with a a positive incentive. I mean, I don't get anything from my utility that tells me anything useful. It only tells me when I you know, when I got one E V and then we got our other E V, so now we have no, you know, we're not

Vit Lyoshin (36:06.671)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Gramlich (36:27.991)
burning any gasoline for our our cars, but my utility's telling me I'm like a an environmental disaster because I'm using so much electricity. Well it's it's because I'm because I'm shifting away from gasoline and it's a lot cleaner. they could be telling me, hey, you know, here's some extra dollars if you use power at this time of day and things like that.

Vit Lyoshin (36:36.034)
you

Vit Lyoshin (36:41.709)
Yeah.

Vit Lyoshin (36:49.229)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's interesting. Okay. And another question I have is like with all these issues right now that AI created for us with this demand is in general, are you staying optimistic or not really in terms of like our grid is going to get upgraded, we're going to build all these new lines and generators and stuff.

Rob Gramlich (37:14.315)
Yeah, I mean there is a lot of development happening. generators are building, generating companies are building generation, transmission companies are building transmission. So it is happening. you know, the demand signal is sort of feeding through the system. it's never quite as smooth as you you want it to, but you know, there is there is plenty of infrastructure being built. And so we'll be able to power a lot more. I don't know if we'll be able to power

all of what is being demanded and there are there is very limited public tolerance to you know increase rates of you know or utility bills to pay for it. So the you know the new users are gonna have to step up and and pay you know pay quite a bit to pay for a lot of the infrastructure. But I I do think there are ways to do that and there's there's demand in the market and willingness to pay for that infrastructure. So I think a lot of it will get built.

Vit Lyoshin (38:10.895)
Yeah, yeah, well, I try to stay optimistic also because I think there's a great potential with this technology. It's just, you know, we need to somehow give it some calories like we have calories, right? They need some power to our energy. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you, Rob, for explaining these topics and answering my questions. I think that's great.

Rob Gramlich (38:26.219)
Right. Right.

Vit Lyoshin (38:36.463)
It clarifies a few things for me personally also. But before you go, I usually have three questions that I ask every guest. It's innovation related. So if you don't mind, like really quick answers. Can you define innovation in a few words?

Rob Gramlich (38:59.233)
Well, finding a a better way of of doing things is, you know, I think a good definition and it's certainly something we we need to do in the power sector here with all this demand.

Vit Lyoshin (39:12.587)
Okay, great. The second question is which innovation in the history you think changed the world the most?

Rob Gramlich (39:20.837)
boy. Well, I mean I might say the whole electric power network machine, it is a as a single machine and and just look at the massive improv improvement in lifestyle when people got access to to electricity. so I would say and you know, we can thank Ed Edison and Tesla and the other

the others for developing, you know, n not just the first power plant, but the whole integrated network which we rely on for so much of what we do.

Vit Lyoshin (39:51.907)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. And the last one is which one technology or thing or device that we use today you think will be laughing at 10 years from now.

Rob Gramlich (40:04.891)
interesting. Well, you know, I I do think we can produce affordable, reliable power on a continuously cleaner and cleaner basis. It's not like we can't do it 100% tomorrow, but I do think some of the older forms of generation can, you know, sort of phase phase into the the background as we as we get cleaner sources on the grid.

Vit Lyoshin (40:34.315)
Okay, great. Yeah, looking forward to that. It's been a big progress already, so we'll see. All right, Rob, thank you very much. We'll stay in touch. Thank you.

Rob Gramlich (40:44.873)
Okay. Thanks. Yep. Good to be with you.

Vit Lyoshin (40:48.643)
Yep, bye.